Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_4/V13_460.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #460

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 460

Today's Topics:
               Re: Saturn V blueprints
               Re: Saturn V and the ALS
             Re: Laser launchers
        Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
             [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 19:40:41 GMT
From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!ox.com!hela![e-mail]  (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Saturn V blueprints

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>etc.).  A proven design or simple derivative of one is a better bet than a
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>clean-slate one, given Congress's memories of the shuttle experience.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Better not tell the guys at GM Saturn. Their "clean-slate" automobiles
>are a hekkuva lot better put together than GM's "dervatives." Moderate
>pricing and high quality were both achieved.

Not the same thing. Saturn (the car) does not use the very latest technology
everywhere like the Shuttle does. A lot of what they do is very advanced
but it is not the latest stuff.

Most of the success of the GM Saturn comes from the human aspects of their
corporate culture.

   Allen
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Allen W. Sherzer | If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back |
|   [e-mail]   | to you, hunt it down and kill it.                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 19:04:03 GMT
From: dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!caen!sdd.hp.com!usc!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!en.ecn.purdue.edu![e-mail]  (/dev/null)
Subject: Re: Saturn V and the ALS

> >The ALS is being designed around
> >reliablility and cost.  While actual research can be expensive, the product
> >you get (cheap effective launchers in this case), will be what
> >you aim for.
>
> Boy I got a feeling of deja vu reading that. It took me a while but I finally
> tracked down why. The following is from the Congress Record of Feb. 29, 1973.

I  recall no Sen. Snerds, or anyone by the name of Nasa-guY.
  Where did you get this dialogue?

>
> Now history has shown that Senator Snerds concerns where indeed valid and
> that Mr. Nasa-guy was wrong. Question: what has changed about the current
> situation as regards to ALS which would cause us to expect ALS to be any
> different?
>
Your assumption:  One mess up = Always mess up.

Your ficticious dialogue does not prove that ALS won't work.  You are
ready to run hell-bent to a direction that WILL cost a lot of money the
minute you see something that you feel will for the fact that it is new.

I will state this again:  Re tooling and parts finding for the old
Saturn V is a nightmare that does not give us much benefit besides
a rocket (A research program, we get a rocket and discover new things
we did not know before - always beneficial).

If we don't try to become better, we only go backwards!
(Many other nations would thank us for this)

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Brent L. Irvine     |            These are MY opinions   |
| Malt Beverage Analyst     |            As if they counted...:) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 14:23:09 GMT
From: eru!hagbard!sunic!mcsun!ukc!mucs!logitek!hrc63!mrcu![e-mail]  (Paul Johnson)
Subject: Re: Laser launchers

Errm, 'scuse me.  Dumb question time.  How does a laser launcher actually
work?

Thanks,

Paul.

--
Paul Johnson |            Isn't modern education wonderful: one size fits all!
-------------^------------------v-------------------------v-------------------
GEC-Marconi Research is not     | Telex: 995016 GECRES G  | Tel: [phone]
responsible for my opinions.    | Inet: [e-mail] | Fax: [phone]

------------------------------

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SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 452

Today's Topics:
                Returned mail: unknown mailer error 1

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
                         [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 448

Today's Topics:
                       Re: Saturn V and the ALS
           POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION
                       Eclipse Trip to Mazatlan
              Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints)
              Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18
              Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints)
                  Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D
                 FACE on MARS -- Request for info...
                      Re: Galileo status reports
                        SPACE Digest V13 #442

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
  [e-mail].  Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests,
  should be sent to [e-mail], or, if urgent, to
                         [e-mail]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 21:40:24 GMT
From: ucselx!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo!henry@uc
   sd.edu  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Saturn V and the ALS

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (
   /dev/null) writes:
>What I was trying to say is that the only costs of the Saturn is not
>the booster.  The overall economic impact of stepping back 20+ years
>in technology because something might have had, at one time, a track
>record, might be devaststing in aerospace and other industries.

Nonsense.  There is no reason why R&D work on more advanced systems could
not go on.  But it is important to distinguish building a reliable and
cost-effective launcher from doing R&D in advanced launcher technology.
The two are not the same; indeed, they are incompatible.  If we want
something that works well and that has some chance of being cheap, we
*want* technology that is old enough to have been debugged.

>(Also, much of the Saturn would have to be redesigned ...

Nonsense again.  Almost nothing would need redesign; the only area I
can think of where this would be beneficial would be the electronics.
We'd need to redesign the *tooling*, and that would cause small changes
in the design of the launcher, and much of it would have to be re-tested,
but the basic design is not broken and does not need fixing.

>... The minute we start saying "good
>enough" (as it has been said of the Saturn V!) is when we die as an
>aerospace leader!!

"The best is the enemy of the good." - Admiral Gorshkov.  Somehow I think
a country with reliable and cost-effective low-tech launchers is much more
of an aerospace leader than one which can't make its high-tech birds work.
--
And the bean-counter replied,           | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
"beans are more important".             |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 91 16:20:06 MDT
From: oler <@BITNET.CC.CMU.EDU:[e-mail]> (CARY OLER)
Subject: POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION
X-St-Vmsmail-To: st%"[e-mail]"

                /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

                        SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN

                              23 April, 1991
                                 22:00 UT

                /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING CANCELLATION

The following Warning has been CANCELLED:

     - POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC STORM WARNING (cancelled).

Potential GIC Status: GREEN.


     The flare effects from the major X-class flare of 20 April failed to
materialize.  The window for potential geomagnetic storming has passed.  As a
result, the Potential Geomagnetic Storm Warning has been terminated.
Geomagnetic activity is expected to remain generally quiet to unsettled for
the next couple of days.

     Solar activity indices have been dropping rapidly over the last several
days.  In particular, the solar flux has dropped to a level of 146 on 23
April, which is the lowest level observed since 02 November, 1990.  Major
flaring is no longer possible from the few very weak regions currently
visible on the solar disk.  In fact, only minor C-class flaring and
occassional subflaring appears possible.  SIDs/SWFs are not expected over the
next several days.  Stable ionospheric conditions should prevail.

     HF and VHF propagation conditions will remain near normal over the next
several days.  No periods of degradation are anticipated.

     Auroral activity will remain generally dormant.


**  End of Bulletin  **

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Apr 1991 17:22:28 CDT
From: [e-mail] (Pat Reiff [phone]-2650)
Subject: Eclipse Trip to Mazatlan
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"[e-mail]"

   For those who would like an "out of this world" experience, there still
are a few spaces left on an eclipse trip to Mazatlan for which I am the
science advisor.  We leave July 9 from Houston (chartered nonstop flight),
stay 3 nights at the (beachfront) El Cid Mega Resort; watch the eclipse
from on the grounds of the hotel (5 minutes and 27 seconds of totality;
more if you want to share a cab and go somewhere else); and return July 12.
The cost is $599 each for double occupancy; $569 each, triple; $559, quad.
Hotel, air (from Houston) and transfers to and from airport are included;
meals and local travel are not.  (Who wants someone else to arrange their
meals in Mexico??)   This is the cheapest such trip I've seen advertised
anywhere, and the operator is working at virtually no profit (he upped the
class of the hotel without increasing the price).

   The tour operator is experienced in arranging amateur astronomy travel;
I went with them to Canada in '79 and was a guide to Australia for Halley's
Comet in '86. They have also arranged eclipse trips to many other places.

   For information call George at Hanssen/Future travel [phone].  In
Houston call [phone] or 480-1988.  Tell him I sent ya.


------
From the First Space Science Department in the World:
                                                    :      _^ ^_    ____
     Patricia H. Reiff                              :     / O O \   |GO \
     Department of Space Physics and Astronomy      :     \  V  /   |OWLS\
     Rice University, Houston, TX 77251-1892        :    / ""R"" \__/
     internet:  [e-mail]  (128.42.10.3)    \ ""U"" /
     SPAN:      RICE::REIFF                         :    _/|\ /|\_

"Why does man want to go to the Moon? ...  Why does Rice play Texas?"
   ....JFK, Rice Stadium, 1962

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 19:06:40 GMT
From: mojo![e-mail]  (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints)

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) writ
   es:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard Akerman)
   writes:
>>Perhaps this has been discussed before, but, at least conceptually, is there
>>any reason NASA shouldn't use Energia as its heavy-lift vehicle?
>
>The main problem is that I don't think we can regard the USSR as a reliable
>trading partner. There is too high a risk of either a civil war or a new
>Stalinism which would harm our access to LEO.

They need the cash too badly...they'd provide decent services. There's nothing
which NASA needs to lift into orbit on Energia which couldn't wait a couple of
years in case of disruption of launch services from the Soviet Union via
political events.

NASA projects lived through the disruption of services after Challenger, which
was UN-anticipated. With a little contingency planning, Energia could work.



     Signature envy: quality of some people to put 24+ lines in their .sigs
  -- >                  [e-mail]                        < --

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 22:23:01 GMT
From: wuarchive!rex!rouge![e-mail]  (Fraering Philip)
Subject: Re: Atlas Centaur bites the big one, 4/18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Henry
   Spencer) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Allen W. Sherzer) writ
   es:
>>Wasn't this the first failure of a Centaur upper stage? I have
>>been looking around but can't find another one which didn't work.

>Sounds like you didn't look back far enough. :-)  Centaur's development
>was a memorable horror story, although it has been very reliable in
>recent times.

There was a failure back in the mid-80's, but it was due to the fuel
tank. If the engine was the cause of the failure, it would be the
first one in a very long time. Which is why I suspect the electronics,
but then again I'm no expert.


--
Phil Fraering
[e-mail]
Joke going around: "How many country music singers does it take to
change a light bulb? Four. One to change the bulb, and three to sing
about the old one."

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 20:17:23 GMT
From: pasteur!agate!bionet!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!samsung!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!
   caen!ox.com!hela![e-mail]  (Allen W. Sherzer)
Subject: Re: Energia (was Re: Saturn V blueprints)

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Doug Mo
   hney) writes:

>>The main problem is that I don't think we can regard the USSR as a reliable
>>trading partner. There is too high a risk of either a civil war or a new
>>Stalinism which would harm our access to LEO.

>They need the cash too badly...they'd provide decent services.

If there is shooting in the area and the rebels control the launch pad then
they won't be able to provide decent service.

If they reopened the Gulag and Congress held up the launch on human rights
grounds then we wouldn't get good launch services.

>There's nothing which NASA needs to lift into orbit on Energia which
>couldn't wait a couple of years in case of disruption of launch services
>from the Soviet Union via political events.

Of course, the last disruption in the Soviet Union because of political events
lasted 70 years.

I agree that nothing NASA is doing couldn't wait a couple of years (subject
to launch windows). However, that is not what I am talking about. I would
like to see an active US space program which produces a spacefairing
civilization. To do this the Soviets are not reliable enough.

  Allen

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Allen W. Sherzer | If you love something, let it go. If it doesn't come back |
|   [e-mail]   | to you, hunt it down and kill it.                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 01:55:57 GMT
From: sun-barr!ccut!wnoc-tyo-news!astemgw!kuis!rins![e-mail]  (will)
Subject: Re: Government vs. Commercial R&D

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Alan M.
   Carroll) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (will) writes:
>>       Perhaps if the U.S. companys could pull their resourses together and
>> work together without suing the pants off each other there is a way.
>
>Not possible here. Any group of companies trying this would be blasted
>out of existence by a _government_ anti-trust lawsuit. Any purchase of
>a major company must approved by the government. And we call ourselves
>a free market country.

        I don't entirly agree with the Anti-trust thing, I mean if America
        can allow murders to run rabid, crazies to mass murder 10+ people
        and put them back on the street, allow police officers to beat up
        people for enjoyment.  I think congress can overlook a simple little
        thing like Anti-trust.  Besides with half of America on drugs I really
        don't think anyone is going to notice.  At least this is what is printed
        in the Japanese news, that an average Japanese will read.

                                                        Will.....

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 91 19:55:29 GMT
From: pasteur!agate!bionet!uwm.edu!caen!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!boingo.me
   d.jhu.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.wvu.wvnet.edu!cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu!cathedral!kannan@
   ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (R. Kannan)
Subject: FACE on MARS -- Request for info...

Hello there

 Recently I have heard numerous times that some Mars mission
actually found evidence of some form of skillful habitants. I am told
that there are

        1. pyramids like in Egypt but with the twist that the base
           is pentagonal.

        2. formations that resembles a face.

        3. the ruins of a town ....

I have been trying to get hold of an OMNI issue which covers this
material. So far not much luck. I have not read this weeks LIFE taboid
that talks about LIFE On MARS.

Thus I would appreciate any information you might have on this topic.
Thank you ...


Other:
        The notion that Earth is the only place where life exists is quite
a bit strange. There is no definitive proof to challenge this notion.
So we live without a resolution ... To the mind that beleives in LIFE
other than EARTHLING ...the mere probabilistic stmt. that
"There exists a finite non-zero probability that in ...." is not
enough.

The netter's knowledge may help me in this regard ....

 Thank you very much


        USPOST  R.Kannan
                Drawer 2000
                CERC,
                West Virginia University,
                Morgantown, WV 26505

        Phone   [phone]

        Fax     [phone]


        E-mail  [e-mail]

---kannan

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 91 00:56:24 GMT
From: mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi![e-mail]  (Michael V. Kent)
Subject: Re: Galileo status reports

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (J
   ay Glass) writes:
>
>*If* these attempts are unsuccessful, it follows that bandwidth will be
>*very* limited from Jupiter using only the low-gain antenna (about 10 bps
>at that range to Earth).  This wouldn't prevent data recording and relay
>from the probe, but would seriously affect imaging, etc. from the Galileo
>orbiter.  In a worst-case scenario, I have heard suggestions floated of
>launching a communications relay in a direct trajectory to Jupiter in
>order to "catch up"  with Galileo and make mission objectives reachable
>using the low-gain antenna.

That is an interesting idea.  If anyone knows any more about this, please say
something.  Is there any way to alter the VEEGA trajectory in such a way as
to bring it back to Earth at a low enough velocity to drop it into Earth orbit
for repair?  I realize it probably wouldn't get back until 1998 if it's even
possible, but we could then retrieve it, fix it, and re-launch.

--
Michael Kent                                  [e-mail]
McDonnell Douglas                             Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
St. Louis, Missouri                           Troy, New York
                               Apple II Forever!

------------------------------

ReSent-Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Resent-Date:  Tue, 23 Apr 91 15:12:40 EDT
Resent-From: Tommy Mac <[e-mail]>
Resent-To: [e-mail]
Date:         Tue, 23 Apr 91 01:58:56 EDT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Subject:      SPACE Digest V13 #442
Comments: To: [e-mail]
To: david polito <[e-mail]>, Tom McWilliams <[e-mail]>

Re: r101 & R100's

>>   OK-- What in the world is R100 and or R101, Can you give any
>>  references where one could read up on them.

  (Stuff describing r100 + R101's deleted)

>>   I don't wish to flame anyone here but suggesting that *WE* read
>>   something about something without the least reference as to what it
>>   is or where to even find references to it is, IMHO, impolite at the
>>   least.

>Jeez, do you want a reference for Spitfires and Hurricanes every time
>someone mentions them, too?  Remind me never to talk fighters if
>you're in the room.  R100 and R101 are just about as well known.
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^

I don't wish to flame anyone either; but you're wrong.

I know of Spitfires, Mustangs, Hellcats, Bearcats, Corsairs, Skyhawks, Migs
Tomcats, etc., etc., etc., as well as tons of civilian craft, but I ain't
never heard of R100 or R101 before you mentioned them.

Just because YOU know them as well does not mean they are as well known.

Tommy Mac
18084tm@msu
Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU>

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #448
*******************

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #452
*******************

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #460
*******************